Comments on: Booksellers, diaries, talking http://noncompositional.com/2006/03/booksellers-diaries-talking/ Thu, 13 Jan 2011 01:44:08 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1 hourly 1 By: Russell http://noncompositional.com/2006/03/booksellers-diaries-talking/comment-page-1/#comment-76 Russell Fri, 03 Mar 2006 03:54:36 +0000 http://noncompositional.com/2006/03/booksellers-diaries-talking/#comment-76 <p>It's tempting, but unfortunately the use of "talk [language]" is attested (in the OED) only back to 1859 "talk slang." The use with a particular language, "talk French and German," is attested in 1886.</p> <p>On the other hand, the usage of "talk business" they have back as far as 1387. I was surprised at this. Their example is: "He..talkede with hym fiftene dayes the gospel." Other usages are similar, leading up to "talk shop," first listed attestation in 1854. That's four years before "talk slang." So it seems as though this "converse widely about some topic" use rather old, with the restriction just as.</p> <p>It would have been useful for me to contrast "let's talk the solution to problem 2a" with "let's talk about the solution to problem 2a." Now, I don't deny that the second sentence means that there will be a rather long discussion about something rather specific. Something about <em>about</em> coerces such a reading. It just seems that transitive <em>talk</em> has a tougher time coercing that meaning. This is probably not something about the semantics of <em>talk</em> per se, just the fact that phrases like <em>talk business</em> are so conventional that it takes more "work" to use them with other words (homework, houses) let alone with something that is not conventionally associated with topics.</p> <p>There are also seeming-exceptions to my "anchored to the current" discourse comment re: "talking huge." You can have sentences like</p> <p>she must have been talking godzilla-huge she must have been midnight, not just 9pm</p> <p>Something about the epistemic modality here lets you say this, I think.</p> It’s tempting, but unfortunately the use of “talk [language]” is attested (in the OED) only back to 1859 “talk slang.” The use with a particular language, “talk French and German,” is attested in 1886.

On the other hand, the usage of “talk business” they have back as far as 1387. I was surprised at this. Their example is: “He..talkede with hym fiftene dayes the gospel.” Other usages are similar, leading up to “talk shop,” first listed attestation in 1854. That’s four years before “talk slang.” So it seems as though this “converse widely about some topic” use rather old, with the restriction just as.

It would have been useful for me to contrast “let’s talk the solution to problem 2a” with “let’s talk about the solution to problem 2a.” Now, I don’t deny that the second sentence means that there will be a rather long discussion about something rather specific. Something about about coerces such a reading. It just seems that transitive talk has a tougher time coercing that meaning. This is probably not something about the semantics of talk per se, just the fact that phrases like talk business are so conventional that it takes more “work” to use them with other words (homework, houses) let alone with something that is not conventionally associated with topics.

There are also seeming-exceptions to my “anchored to the current” discourse comment re: “talking huge.” You can have sentences like

she must have been talking godzilla-huge she must have been midnight, not just 9pm

Something about the epistemic modality here lets you say this, I think.

]]> By: King Alfred http://noncompositional.com/2006/03/booksellers-diaries-talking/comment-page-1/#comment-75 King Alfred Wed, 01 Mar 2006 18:33:11 +0000 http://noncompositional.com/2006/03/booksellers-diaries-talking/#comment-75 <p>I wonder if the "talk business" usage wasn't originally generated by analogy with "Let's talk Swedish, etc." Even though I think it's slightly more standard to "speak" another language, people often enoguh seem to use talk for this purpose. ("I didn't understand him; he was talking Chinese...", etc.) If so, this would explain why, as you say, "it would have to be a major enough topic that it could take up a good chunk of time discussing it." I.e., the usage isn't the same as talking <em>about</em> something, it's for whatever will be the overall tenor of the conversation, even involving (in some cases like business or science) a jargon all its own.</p> <p>Just a thought.</p> I wonder if the “talk business” usage wasn’t originally generated by analogy with “Let’s talk Swedish, etc.” Even though I think it’s slightly more standard to “speak” another language, people often enoguh seem to use talk for this purpose. (“I didn’t understand him; he was talking Chinese…”, etc.) If so, this would explain why, as you say, “it would have to be a major enough topic that it could take up a good chunk of time discussing it.” I.e., the usage isn’t the same as talking about something, it’s for whatever will be the overall tenor of the conversation, even involving (in some cases like business or science) a jargon all its own.

Just a thought.

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