<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: Truth, reality, caring less</title>
	<atom:link href="http://noncompositional.com/2009/04/truth-reality-caring-less/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://noncompositional.com/2009/04/truth-reality-caring-less/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 13 Jan 2011 01:44:08 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<generator>http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.1</generator>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
		<item>
		<title>By: hotel bewertungen</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2009/04/truth-reality-caring-less/comment-page-1/#comment-43167</link>
		<dc:creator>hotel bewertungen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 15 Jan 2010 07:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=350#comment-43167</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;As Urban,date arrangement death authority arrangement among pool previous studio cover beside now industrial recover both stuff approve learn economy indeed terms appear explanation physical easy soft size protection cold try ready institution proposal alone let energy vehicle title appropriate illustrate grow put pay including sentence ask can develop industrial scientist return equal grow various representation school only example stand after because basis often agency on way stay after insist practical family entitle terms close fear extent ear phase report thought investment press black male police release onto&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As Urban,date arrangement death authority arrangement among pool previous studio cover beside now industrial recover both stuff approve learn economy indeed terms appear explanation physical easy soft size protection cold try ready institution proposal alone let energy vehicle title appropriate illustrate grow put pay including sentence ask can develop industrial scientist return equal grow various representation school only example stand after because basis often agency on way stay after insist practical family entitle terms close fear extent ear phase report thought investment press black male police release onto</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: joseph palmer</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2009/04/truth-reality-caring-less/comment-page-1/#comment-39718</link>
		<dc:creator>joseph palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 May 2009 00:48:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=350#comment-39718</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The phrase we are discussing is one proof that this is not so. People say (and especially write) things which others do not accept as standard English all the time. After all, many people speak in local dialect.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;Thus, there are people who &quot;prescribe&quot; to police this. Dictionaries were created as policing tools. There are also linguists who &quot;describe&quot;. Most linguists, unlike the LLog scholars, are content with this idea. However, the process differs from a discussion of dialect. For one thing, a discussion of dialect is not usually held in dialect, and is not an example of what it attempts to describe. Local dialect is not used for intra-communal communication, and thus nobody wishes to studiously internalize the norms that are described, in opposition to standard. You will not find people using the word &quot;wrong&quot; about common dialect phrases, as Liberman has about standard, when a phrase in dialect is proven to be in common use. The norms of the local dialect are not well known to the speakers, they are intuitive, and thus people do not discuss them very much. The dialect is not usually written down. I could go on.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The phrase we are discussing is one proof that this is not so. People say (and especially write) things which others do not accept as standard English all the time. After all, many people speak in local dialect.</p>

<p>Thus, there are people who &#8220;prescribe&#8221; to police this. Dictionaries were created as policing tools. There are also linguists who &#8220;describe&#8221;. Most linguists, unlike the LLog scholars, are content with this idea. However, the process differs from a discussion of dialect. For one thing, a discussion of dialect is not usually held in dialect, and is not an example of what it attempts to describe. Local dialect is not used for intra-communal communication, and thus nobody wishes to studiously internalize the norms that are described, in opposition to standard. You will not find people using the word &#8220;wrong&#8221; about common dialect phrases, as Liberman has about standard, when a phrase in dialect is proven to be in common use. The norms of the local dialect are not well known to the speakers, they are intuitive, and thus people do not discuss them very much. The dialect is not usually written down. I could go on.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Fresh Sawdust</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2009/04/truth-reality-caring-less/comment-page-1/#comment-39709</link>
		<dc:creator>Fresh Sawdust</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 06 May 2009 16:48:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=350#comment-39709</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Joseph (in reply to primarily your last comment): Surely the fact that linguists look at shibboleths at all means that they recognize that at least certain aspects of the standard carry prestige, and as you say, nobody really needs to be told what is current in their dialectal locale - but then, nor do they really need to be told what is current in the more widespread standard, either, apart from the shibboleths (which are as I say at least included if not described well enough, for those who would prefer to use them). Put simply, the only people who really need to be made consciously aware of any sort of standard are foreign learners of &quot;the&quot; language (oops, I put the &#039;the&#039; in scare quotes - leaving you a hook? Nah, not really, that&#039;s just that intra-speaker or competence versus performance stuff, especially when it comes to non-native performance ;). Native speaker adults who have problems with their own language might be genuine dyslexics (and/or have had appallingly bad teachers during their schooling, assuming they went and participated), but probably they just don&#039;t care enough about much to want to communicate at all in writing, so they soon get very out of practice, rapidly &quot;learn&quot; to misspell etc etc.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Joseph (in reply to primarily your last comment): Surely the fact that linguists look at shibboleths at all means that they recognize that at least certain aspects of the standard carry prestige, and as you say, nobody really needs to be told what is current in their dialectal locale &#8211; but then, nor do they really need to be told what is current in the more widespread standard, either, apart from the shibboleths (which are as I say at least included if not described well enough, for those who would prefer to use them). Put simply, the only people who really need to be made consciously aware of any sort of standard are foreign learners of &#8220;the&#8221; language (oops, I put the &#8216;the&#8217; in scare quotes &#8211; leaving you a hook? Nah, not really, that&#8217;s just that intra-speaker or competence versus performance stuff, especially when it comes to non-native performance ;). Native speaker adults who have problems with their own language might be genuine dyslexics (and/or have had appallingly bad teachers during their schooling, assuming they went and participated), but probably they just don&#8217;t care enough about much to want to communicate at all in writing, so they soon get very out of practice, rapidly &#8220;learn&#8221; to misspell etc etc.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: joseph palmer</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2009/04/truth-reality-caring-less/comment-page-1/#comment-39560</link>
		<dc:creator>joseph palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 01 May 2009 01:35:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=350#comment-39560</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I don&#039;t see that linguistics is afraid to tackle intra-speaker variation, but to tackle the fact that standard languages are also status languages, and probably necessarily so. There are few questions posed by average people concerning the norms of dialect, and many concerning the norms of standard languages. This is because people do not have much scholarly interest in these norms, but wish to know how to use the language that carries the highest status.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;The difference is crucial, and yet linguists often maintain that the standard dialect is just one more dialect. In sociolinguistic terms, that is utterly wrong.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t see that linguistics is afraid to tackle intra-speaker variation, but to tackle the fact that standard languages are also status languages, and probably necessarily so. There are few questions posed by average people concerning the norms of dialect, and many concerning the norms of standard languages. This is because people do not have much scholarly interest in these norms, but wish to know how to use the language that carries the highest status.</p>

<p>The difference is crucial, and yet linguists often maintain that the standard dialect is just one more dialect. In sociolinguistic terms, that is utterly wrong.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2009/04/truth-reality-caring-less/comment-page-1/#comment-39544</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 29 Apr 2009 15:46:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=350#comment-39544</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The best I can say is that these are all both difficult and important questions, but modern linguistics (well, &quot;theoretical&quot; linguistics anyway) has set itself a goal that seems best accomplished by abstracting away from inter- and intra-speaker variation. (with several notable exceptions). The move to rid one&#039;s self of the competence-performance distinction might help; or at least replace it with something gradable. Probably wouldn&#039;t satisfy anyone working in the sociology/anthropology of language, since there&#039;s such a gulf between the fields, it seems like any move to make them play together would have to be really truly radical.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The best I can say is that these are all both difficult and important questions, but modern linguistics (well, &#8220;theoretical&#8221; linguistics anyway) has set itself a goal that seems best accomplished by abstracting away from inter- and intra-speaker variation. (with several notable exceptions). The move to rid one&#8217;s self of the competence-performance distinction might help; or at least replace it with something gradable. Probably wouldn&#8217;t satisfy anyone working in the sociology/anthropology of language, since there&#8217;s such a gulf between the fields, it seems like any move to make them play together would have to be really truly radical.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: joseph palmer</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2009/04/truth-reality-caring-less/comment-page-1/#comment-39501</link>
		<dc:creator>joseph palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 23:57:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=350#comment-39501</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Also, sorry for the mixed metaphor above! When I write in favour of &#039;informed prescriptivism&#039; I should be much more careful, even though I am advocating Liberman et al to do the intuitive prescribing, and not myself. Descriptivists or otherwise, people tend to see these kinds of mistakes and decide they are dealing with an idiot. This is why we work hard to conform.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also, sorry for the mixed metaphor above! When I write in favour of &#8216;informed prescriptivism&#8217; I should be much more careful, even though I am advocating Liberman et al to do the intuitive prescribing, and not myself. Descriptivists or otherwise, people tend to see these kinds of mistakes and decide they are dealing with an idiot. This is why we work hard to conform.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: joseph palmer</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2009/04/truth-reality-caring-less/comment-page-1/#comment-39491</link>
		<dc:creator>joseph palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:58:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=350#comment-39491</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Take punctuation, for example. If you examine actual usuage, there are few hard and fast rules. Nonetheless, the Language Log writers still generally observe the kind of rules that get prescribed from on high.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Take punctuation, for example. If you examine actual usuage, there are few hard and fast rules. Nonetheless, the Language Log writers still generally observe the kind of rules that get prescribed from on high.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: joseph palmer</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2009/04/truth-reality-caring-less/comment-page-1/#comment-39490</link>
		<dc:creator>joseph palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 26 Apr 2009 12:49:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=350#comment-39490</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;The boundaries are nearly impossible to draw, to my mind. You can make the distinctions and guidelines in principle, but you can&#039;t decide in practice what is and what is not &quot;standard&quot; English when the grey areas rear their heads. Blogs/comments are a very good example of a mixture of all kinds of registers.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;I&#039;m afraid the existence of a standard language is all very mixed up with oppressive power, and this is why linguistics does not deal with it very well. Standards do ultimately derive, to some degree, from precedents set by powerful figures, groups, classes or organizations, and it must be the case even to some extent in a non-literate society. An extremely powerful leader, such as a Mao, can wave his hand and alter usage. An influential writer can move things a little. The discussion that led us here was a very important day in the life of &quot;The reality....&quot;. That discussion will come up 1st on Google, perhaps, and the big chief says no, and that one million customers can be wrong. How many people need to use the phrase before we call it &quot;right&quot;? Can there be a scientific answer?&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The boundaries are nearly impossible to draw, to my mind. You can make the distinctions and guidelines in principle, but you can&#8217;t decide in practice what is and what is not &#8220;standard&#8221; English when the grey areas rear their heads. Blogs/comments are a very good example of a mixture of all kinds of registers.</p>

<p>I&#8217;m afraid the existence of a standard language is all very mixed up with oppressive power, and this is why linguistics does not deal with it very well. Standards do ultimately derive, to some degree, from precedents set by powerful figures, groups, classes or organizations, and it must be the case even to some extent in a non-literate society. An extremely powerful leader, such as a Mao, can wave his hand and alter usage. An influential writer can move things a little. The discussion that led us here was a very important day in the life of &#8220;The reality&#8230;.&#8221;. That discussion will come up 1st on Google, perhaps, and the big chief says no, and that one million customers can be wrong. How many people need to use the phrase before we call it &#8220;right&#8221;? Can there be a scientific answer?</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Russell</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2009/04/truth-reality-caring-less/comment-page-1/#comment-39460</link>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 15:40:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=350#comment-39460</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;Well, the intro to the CGEL does set out several guidelines and heuristics used to set the scope of the data examined. And they do admit that the notion of &quot;standard&quot; is the most subtle and difficult one to do. And IIRC they do make sure to separate the notion of standard from register: there is standard and non-standard speech for both formal and intimate registers. Of course knowing the boundaries is difficult, but as long as you have those disclaimers and qualifications (never mind if people actually read the front matter of reference books) I think it&#039;s legit to proceed and describe &quot;the grammar of English.&quot;&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;And, I would say that an important difference between prescriptivism of the type derided on LL and whatever formal linguists do when they limit the scope of their inquiry is that the latter make a clear distinction between &quot;standard&quot; and &quot;correct,&quot; as I&#039;m sure you&#039;re aware. The prescriptivists most criticized (and such people do seem to exist) see one context of communication as setting the standard for all contexts, leading to people who demand of their drinking buddies that they follow the style guide of XYZ publication (in the extreme case).&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, the intro to the CGEL does set out several guidelines and heuristics used to set the scope of the data examined. And they do admit that the notion of &#8220;standard&#8221; is the most subtle and difficult one to do. And IIRC they do make sure to separate the notion of standard from register: there is standard and non-standard speech for both formal and intimate registers. Of course knowing the boundaries is difficult, but as long as you have those disclaimers and qualifications (never mind if people actually read the front matter of reference books) I think it&#8217;s legit to proceed and describe &#8220;the grammar of English.&#8221;</p>

<p>And, I would say that an important difference between prescriptivism of the type derided on LL and whatever formal linguists do when they limit the scope of their inquiry is that the latter make a clear distinction between &#8220;standard&#8221; and &#8220;correct,&#8221; as I&#8217;m sure you&#8217;re aware. The prescriptivists most criticized (and such people do seem to exist) see one context of communication as setting the standard for all contexts, leading to people who demand of their drinking buddies that they follow the style guide of XYZ publication (in the extreme case).</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: joseph palmer</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2009/04/truth-reality-caring-less/comment-page-1/#comment-39459</link>
		<dc:creator>joseph palmer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Apr 2009 13:43:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=350#comment-39459</guid>
		<description>&lt;p&gt;I mean that &quot;could care less&quot; is not standard, and not logical.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;This line between standard and non-standard is too often glossed over. Imagine a grammar of English that made only statements that were true of every single dialect of English. A thin book? That is not the book that Pullum wrote for CUP. And finding this important line is not easy at all, corpus linguistics notwithstanding.&lt;/p&gt;

&lt;p&gt;As to the final paragraph, yes, very akin to prescriptivism. Especially if you are the first person to describe a language, and others will use your work as a later reference. And in that case you may wish to create prescriptive standards in order to aid communication.&lt;/p&gt;
</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I mean that &#8220;could care less&#8221; is not standard, and not logical.</p>

<p>This line between standard and non-standard is too often glossed over. Imagine a grammar of English that made only statements that were true of every single dialect of English. A thin book? That is not the book that Pullum wrote for CUP. And finding this important line is not easy at all, corpus linguistics notwithstanding.</p>

<p>As to the final paragraph, yes, very akin to prescriptivism. Especially if you are the first person to describe a language, and others will use your work as a later reference. And in that case you may wish to create prescriptive standards in order to aid communication.</p>]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>

