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	<title>Noncompositional &#187; East Asian Languages</title>
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	<link>http://noncompositional.com</link>
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		<title>Zhuzhing up Beijing</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2008/08/zhuzhing-up-beijing/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2008/08/zhuzhing-up-beijing/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 00:12:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[East Asian Languages]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Form]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[annoyances]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[beijing]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mandarin]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[overheard]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[pronunciation]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=278</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[About a month ago I wrote about what seems to be the more prevalent pronunciation of Beijing, namely that involving the postalveolar voiced fricative [ʒ]. Recently an AP article was written that aims to clear everything up and explain that, in fact the &#8220;hard j&#8221; sound in English is a closer approximation to the Mandarin [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About a month ago I <a href="http://noncompositional.com/2008/07/living-with-a-soft-j/">wrote</a> about what seems to be the more prevalent pronunciation of Beijing, namely that involving the postalveolar voiced fricative [ʒ]. Recently <a href="http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/news?slug=ap-tv-whatcity&amp;prov=ap&amp;type=lgns">an AP article</a> was written that aims to clear everything up and explain that, in fact the &#8220;hard j&#8221; sound in English is a closer approximation to the Mandarin pronunciation than the &#8220;soft j&#8221; sound that I (<a href="http://www.languagehat.com/archives/002167.php">and</a> <a href="http://158.130.17.5/~myl/languagelog/archives/000570.html">others</a>) find so frustrating. The main source of the article is not native Mandarin speakers, but S. Robert Ramsey (whose book on Chinese I <a href="http://noncompositional.com/2005/07/unity-and-diversity-in-china/">mentioned</a> about three years ago). Bill Poser <a href="http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=493">discusses</a> the article on LL.</p>

<p>So, this is all to the good, no? I suppose&#8230;but then again, I find I usually pronounce the name of the city Shanghai so that the first vowel is that of <em>hang</em> or <em>fang</em>, not that of <em>father</em>. This despite knowing full well the Mandarin pronunciation (which, as the official language, I would take to be the expected way for a foreigner to say the word, rather than in Shanghainese). In this case, the low mid-vowel is both the more proper and more foreign sounding option, and yet I do not frequently use it (at least, I don&#8217;t think I do, unless speaking with, say, a Chinese-speaker). Is Shanghai really that different from Beijing? And this is to say nothing of Seoul (which I render with a single syllable). Maybe I&#8217;m just a super-Anglicizer, and in the case of Beijing it happens to work out.</p>

<p>And for some sane arguments in favor of Beizhing, I recommend <a href="http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/2008/03/beizhing-pekin-whatever/">this entry</a> in Beijing Sounds.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>Fun in the san-san-san</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2008/08/fun-in-the-san-san-san/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2008/08/fun-in-the-san-san-san/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 14 Aug 2008 17:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[East Asian Languages]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[japanese]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[puzzling]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=275</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[On a lark I decided to switch my Facebook interface to use Japanese. I noticed today that on a particular day when I befriended several people


  Russellさんが Aさん、 Bさんさん、 Cさん、 Dさん、 Eさんさんさんと他1人さんと友達になりました。


That&#8217;s &#8220;Russell-san became friends with A-san, B-san-san, C-san, D-san, E-san-san-san, and one other person-san.&#8221;

Aside from the strangeness (to me) of adding the honorific [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On a lark I decided to switch my Facebook interface to use Japanese. I noticed today that on a particular day when I befriended several people</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>Russellさんが Aさん、 Bさんさん、 Cさん、 Dさん、 Eさんさんさんと他1人さんと友達になりました。</p>
</blockquote>

<p>That&#8217;s &#8220;Russell-san became friends with A-san, B-san-san, C-san, D-san, E-san-san-san, and one other person-san.&#8221;</p>

<p>Aside from the strangeness (to me) of adding the <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Japanese_titles#San">honorific -<em>san</em></a> to the phrase 他1人 &#8216;one other person&#8217;, there is the extreme strangeness of the multiple -_san_s appended to some of the names. I looked at some other people&#8217;s front pages, and found the same pattern exhibited two other times, as well as a slightly different pattern: A-san, B-san, C-san-san, D-san, E-san-san, and F-san (no &#8216;others&#8217; mentioned).</p>

<p>At first I thought it might be that some of the -_san_s got omitted for some names and then stacked up somewhere else, but in no case was someone&#8217;s name missing the honorific suffix.</p>
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		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Living with a soft j</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2008/07/living-with-a-soft-j/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2008/07/living-with-a-soft-j/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 16 Jul 2008 15:57:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[East Asian Languages]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Form]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[annoyances]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[tv]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=252</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I suppose I shouldn&#8217;t really care that nearly every time someone one the news utters the name of the capital city of China, they use a &#8220;soft j&#8221; (aka [ʒ]), rather than the standard Mandarin &#8220;hard j&#8221; ([ʤ] would be the closest sound in English). I mean, it&#8217;s not that big a deal, and hyperforeignization [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suppose I shouldn&#8217;t really care that nearly every time someone one the news utters the name of the capital city of China, they use a &#8220;soft j&#8221; (aka [ʒ]), rather than the standard Mandarin &#8220;hard j&#8221; ([ʤ] would be the closest sound in English). I mean, it&#8217;s not <em>that</em> big a deal, and <a href="http://books.google.com/books?id=OHjPwU1Flo4C&amp;pg=PA270&amp;dq=%22hyper+foreignization%22&amp;sig=ACfU3U3cwWf5s4Fu72_DqgxEG-i_g2pRPw">hyperforeignization</a> is, after all, a fact of linguistic life. Probably serves me right for <a href="http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=354">trying to be bilingual</a>.</p>

<p>[Update: Ben Zimmer's pointer to Bill Poser's similar comments reminded me of another set of cases: pronunciation of <em>Chavez</em> with initial "sh" (as in, say, Cesar Chavez Street (formerly Army St) in San Francisco). The same probably goes for several other cases of "ch" in Spanish (<em>machete</em> anyone?)]</p>
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		<title>Reberu appu!</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2008/04/reberu-appu/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2008/04/reberu-appu/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 10 Apr 2008 22:29:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[East Asian Languages]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[gaming]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[japanese]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[loanwords]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=236</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This is the result of a train of thought that went like this. The other day I was in the linguistics department and looked at a sign that&#8217;s been at the base of a set of stairs for a few years now. It said something like, &#8220;Step up your fitness level: take the stairs.&#8221; I [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is the result of a train of thought that went like this. The other day I was in the linguistics department and looked at a sign that&#8217;s been at the base of a set of stairs for a few years now. It said something like, &#8220;Step up your fitness level: take the stairs.&#8221; I wondered, for some unknown reason, how this would be expressed in Japanese. Of course I really have no idea (though I&#8217;m sure that such a sign is possible, or even probable in Japan&#8230;though on the other hand, there are many places where Japanese people use staircases where Americans would use or at least expect an escalator or elevator; well, at least in places where &#8220;accessability&#8221; is important).</p>

<p>Not really knowing a word for <em>fitness</em> other than <em>kenkoo</em> &#8216;health,&#8217; I just figured that probably, on signage like this, English was more the way to go: <em>fittonesu reberu</em>. Then there&#8217;s the question of <em>raise</em>. There are a few words like <em>ageru</em> which correspond to <em>raise</em> in some contexts. But again, why do that when you can go English: <em>appu!</em></p>

<p>And then yes, we had <em>reberu appu</em>, or <em>level up</em>. That got me to wondering: how many uses of <em>level up</em> (including the pseudo-exclamative &#8220;level up&#8221; as well as the verb &#8220;(to) level up&#8221; in both transitive and intransitive senses) are original to the American gaming community, and how many (if any) are the result of Japanese influence &#8211; or are all Japanese uses taken from elsewhere?</p>
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		<title>S for status</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2007/09/s-for-status/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2007/09/s-for-status/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 12 Sep 2007 06:12:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[East Asian Languages]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Miscellaneous]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/2007/09/s-for-status/</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[At the risk of exposing myself as a video game geek as well as a linguistics geek: I am a fan of the Final Fantasy series of video games, which are console-style role playing games developed by the Japanese company Square Enix (formerly SquareSoft, and at some point involved with Electronic Arts). The series began [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At the risk of exposing myself as a video game geek as well as a linguistics geek: I am a fan of the <em>Final Fantasy</em> series of video games, which are console-style role playing games developed by the Japanese company Square Enix (formerly SquareSoft, and at some point involved with Electronic Arts). The series began on the Family Computer System (Famicom) in Japan in 1987, and released for the Nintendo Entertainment System in America in 1990. The basic premise in these games is that you are (or control) some hero (who may be <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reluctant_hero">reluctant</a>) who ends up having to save the world from some magical, political, or politico-magical force. The hero is also accompanied by a group of companions who tag along for various reasons, including possibly being heroes themselves.</p>

<p>Without getting into the gruesome details of how the gameplay works, one important aspect is called <em>status effects</em>, or simply <em>status</em>. A status effect is some temporary or curable altering of a character&#8217;s normal condition. That is, normally a character is able to take any of the normal commands (attack with equipped weapon, cast spell, execute class-specific action [e.g., steal from opponent]), etc.), and execute them in a timely fashion with the desired effect. Characters also never randomly tire, drop dead, or get second winds, etc. on their own. However, any number of things can change this. A character may be &#8220;poisoned,&#8221; meaning that they will &#8220;die&#8221; (go out of commission) as their body is gradually weakened; or they may be &#8220;blinded,&#8221; and be unable to connect with physical attacks; or they may be &#8220;confused&#8221; and execute random commands on random targets; and so on. For each status, there is usually a particular way to cure it without waiting for it to stop on its own. To cure poisoning, one can use an antidote; for blindness, eye drops; for confusion, whack them with something.</p>

<p><span id="more-209"></span>One question I have is the origin of the term <em>status</em>. In my experience, a <em>status effect</em> is generally a temporary, negative affliction that affects video game characters in adventure/RPG games. But surely (?) the usage is slightly wider, and probably older. But I just don&#8217;t have the experience that lets me know if, say, it is widely used outside of console and computer RPGs &#8211; pencil and paper RPGs, action games, anything? I recently became aware of the terms <em>buff</em> and <em>debuff</em>, apparently common in the MMORPG community for positive and negative status changes on a character. I think <em>status effect</em>, too, can apply to a positive effect, like haste (execute actions faster) and regen(erate) (gradually gain back health; the opposite of poison). Though this is the marked case, so we can talk about <em>positive status effects</em> for the good guys, but just <em>status effects</em> for the negative ones. (Though this is not to rule out <em>negative status effects</em>, or using the unmarked term as a cover category.)</p>

<p>Now, Final Fantasy has an interesting nomenclature when it comes to the magical spells. The one part I want to look at is the status-inflicting and status-curing spells. These are generally limited to names that can be written with four or less <em>kana</em> (now due to convention, earlier due to limitations on word lengths, I suppose), and they are usually modeled on English words. So the spell for poisoning is ポイズン <em>po.i.zu.n</em>, the one for blinding is ブライン <em>bu.ra.i.n</em>. The spells that remove such effects are sometimes similar-sounding to the inflicting counterparts, but with a -<em>na</em> ending, which I suppose is basically an extended use of the Japanese negation suffix of the same form. So we have ブライナ <em>bu.ra.i.na</em>, which removes blindness, ポイゾナ <em>po.i.zo.na</em>, which removes poisoning, and ストナ <em>su.to.na</em>, which removes &#8220;stone,&#8221; or petrification. Okay, it&#8217;s cute.</p>

<p>But what is going on with the all-purpose spell <em>esuna</em>? It removes a wide range of negative status effects. But why the heck is that what it&#8217;s called? A few months ago, I finally realized: it&#8217;s the letter <em>S</em> with the -<em>na</em> ending. That is, it negates <em>S_tatus effects. Very clever. Of course, in Japanese, status effects are called 異常状態 _i.joo.joo.tai</em> (I think; I suppose it&#8217;s always possible that ステータス is common as well). At least, I think that&#8217;s why the spell is called what it is. Maybe it&#8217;s all explained somewhere on some website. Interestingly, <em>esuna</em> is sometimes the only spell not given a transparent-ish English name during localization.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>What&#8217;s in that name</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2007/08/whats-in-that-name/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2007/08/whats-in-that-name/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 22 Aug 2007 00:18:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[East Asian Languages]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics and the world]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Use]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/2007/08/whats-in-that-name/</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A recent PC post on envelope-pushing names in China reminded me of the situation on names in Japan, where there is a government-sanctioned list of Chinese characters (kanji) that can be used in personal names. This doesn&#8217;t limit the possible sounds that can go into a name (beyond the phonology of the language), as you [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A <a href="http://polyglotconspiracy.net/index.php/archives/2007/08/16/bizarre-names-creeping-ur-language/">recent PC post</a> on envelope-pushing names in China reminded me of the situation on names in Japan, where there is a government-sanctioned list of Chinese characters (<em>kanji</em>) that can be used in personal names. This doesn&#8217;t limit the possible sounds that can go into a name (beyond the phonology of the language), as you can just use <em>hiragana</em> (or <em>katakana</em>?) to indicate the appropriate pronunciation.</p>

<p>The approved list of <em>kanji</em>, the <em>Jinmeiyoo Kanji</em> (&#8216;Chinese characters for use in personal names&#8217;), consists of 983 <em>kanji</em> that do not appear in the standard 2000-odd standard <em>kanji</em> used in everyday writing, giving parents about 3000 characters to chose from. Excluded from the list are many characters that indicate culturally taboo or offensive concepts, like prostitution, cancer, and various emotional states (resentment, e.g.). Once, there were parents who attempt to give their child a name like &#8216;demon&#8217; or something similar, and this name was rejected as a form of abuse of parental powers, due to the expected social difficulties that the child would be expected to experience (but, I haven&#8217;t heard anything about Japanese parents tying to put symbols in names, like in the Chinese story).</p>

<p><span id="more-207"></span>There is apparently also a list of approved Chinese characters for personal names in Korea (5151 characters). According to <a href="http://www.chosunonline.com/article/20070305000048">this article</a>, offensive/etc. characters are included in the list, but cases like the &#8216;demon&#8217; one haven&#8217;t come up. But, the article says that &#8220;there have been cases where a proposed name has been rejected due not simply to non-standard Chinese characters, but because the name was difficult to pronounce, or would cause serious harm to the child if s/he used it [as a primary name] in public life.&#8221; Also on the list of restrictions in Korea is that the name must be represented either completely in Chinese characters or completely in <em>hangul</em>, and also that in the latter case it cannot exceed five syllables (character-blocks).</p>

<p>These one seems like the least reasonable of the restrictions, as it seems the most aesthetic or technical. To be sure, a name written in both <em>hanja</em> and <em>hangul</em> would look weird, but probably because it just hasn&#8217;t been done yet. <em>Hangul</em> was designed to approximate the appearance of Chinese characters, so if good old King Sejong&#8217;s linguists did their job right, it should look just fine&#8230;no? As for the length restriction, I can&#8217;t imagine it comes up much at all, as most (all?) Korean names are three syllables long, but still: why continue to have the restriction?</p>
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		<title>Vote for Overcome-forest-pause</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2007/06/vote-for-overcome-forest-pause/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2007/06/vote-for-overcome-forest-pause/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2007 18:32:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[East Asian Languages]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Form]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Meaning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Use]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/2007/06/vote-for-overcome-forest-pause/</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Recently I was handed an article on the difficulties in Boston of recording various presidential candidates&#8217; names on Chinese ballots. The problem is laid out fairly enough in the article. Basically, all (or nearly all) characters used in Chinese have an attached meaning or set of meanings. This means that when rendering a non-Sinitic name [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Recently I was handed <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070626/ap_on_el_pr/lost_in_translation;_ylt=Aq7WZ5xFJEUYfuI5JF119CQGw_IE">an article</a> on the difficulties in Boston of recording various presidential candidates&#8217; names on Chinese ballots. The problem is laid out fairly enough in the article. Basically, all (or nearly all) characters used in Chinese have an attached meaning or set of meanings. This means that when rendering a non-Sinitic name in Chinese, one necessarily presents a string of meanings along with a string of sounds. The result is the sort of thing described in the article: &#8220;Barack Obama could be read as &#8216;Oh Bus Horse.&#8217;&#8221; No actual Chinese is given, but I expect that the possibility being referred to is 哦巴马 <em>o ba ma</em>.</p>

<p>This would actually not be my first choice in transcribing (I won&#8217;t mention the annoying confusion with &#8220;translation&#8221; exhibited by the article in question) Obama&#8217;s name. The first character is pronounced as a short open [o], rather than the [ou] that is actually in his name. And it seems that, although 哦巴马 has some very limited use, &#8220;Obama&#8221; is commonly written 欧巴马 (ou ba ma; Mainland, Taiwan) or 奧巴馬 (ao ba ma; Hong Kong). The Mainland version seems closest to me; the Hong Kong initial <em>ao</em> is mysterious: maybe it&#8217;s just convention to use that character, or maybe in Cantonese it has a different enough pronunciation that it makes sense. So why refer to the minority choice in the article? It seems that the meanings of the other variants are just as amusing: the Mainland character <em>ou</em> has basically been bleached of its native meaning, and mostly just stands for &#8216;Europe&#8217;. The HK variant means &#8216;mysterious&#8217; or &#8216;back corner (of a house)&#8217;.*</p>

<p>And how about the rest of the name? The article says that The <em>ma</em> part does mean &#8216;horse&#8217;, and that&#8217;s spot on. Use of &#8216;horse&#8217; to stand for <em>ma</em>-type sounds is standard. I&#8217;ve never seen &#8216;mother&#8217;, &#8216;hemp&#8217;, &#8217;scold&#8217;, &#8216;[question particle]&#8216; or any others used. (FYI, the name for Malaysia is 马来西亚 &#8216;horse-come-west-asia/inferior&#8217;). But I&#8217;m dubious about translating <em>ba</em> as &#8216;bus&#8217;. It certainly is in the word for bus, namely 巴士 (ba shi) but whether the <em>ba</em> part alone can mean &#8216;bus&#8217; I&#8217;m not sure about.</p>

<p>A curious omission is Sen. Clinton, whose family name is 克林顿 (<em>ke lin dun</em>), overcome-forest-pause. Of course, the <em>ke</em> part is almost always used for foreign names, except perhaps in 克服 &#8216;overcome&#8217;. At least, that&#8217;s my impression from reading what Chinese news publications I can understand. I&#8217;d be curious to know how native speakers react to seeing the character, e.g., if they expect a foreign name in its vicinity if they see it.</p>

<p>One of the most ridiculous transliterations described is that of current Boston mayor Thomas Menino, whose name could apparently mean &#8220;Sun-Moon-Rainbow-Farmer&#8221;, &#8220;Imbecile&#8221; or &#8220;Barbarian-Mud-No-Mind-of-His-Own&#8221;. Whoa. I don&#8217;t even see how the first two versions could exist, since his full name should need at least six characters, and (1) no characters that I&#8217;m aware of with meanings &#8220;sun&#8221; and &#8220;moon&#8221; have anything like the right pronunciation, and (2) &#8220;imbecile&#8221; is an unlikely interpretation for an (essentially) random string of six characters. The last option seems more likely for <em>Menino</em>: it probably starts 蒙泥 <em>meng ni</em>, with <em>meng</em> somehow meaning &#8216;barbarian&#8217; instead of being an abbreviation for &#8216;Mongolia(n)&#8217;. But, again, this would buck the general trend: the mayor is usually referred to as 马尼诺 <em>ma ni nuo</em> &#8216;horse-nun-promise&#8217; or 梅尼诺 <em>mei ni nuo</em> &#8216;plum-nun-promise&#8217;.</p>

<p>One has to wonder how much of an issue it is. When someone is reading about a candidate, how much do the characters used to represent the name affect judgment? I suppose when you&#8217;re a presidential candidate, or a Secretary of State, you probably don&#8217;t want to take any risks. The most realistic suggestion reported in the article is for the candidates themselves to suggest how their names should be written down, perhaps taking their cue from what popular Chinese publications are doing. And, I would add, having their names down in Roman letters as well.</p>

<p>*Sometimes I wonder of decisions about which characters to use are motivated by how their pronunciation would end up in pinyin. Using 哦巴马 (the nonstandard variant) gets you _o ba ma_ in pinyin. I&#8217;ve seen some other examples like this, where the closest similarity to English (or whatever other language) is not in pronunciation but in pinyin/Roman spelling. But at the moment I can&#8217;t recall any of the particular cases.</p>
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		<title>There are meters and then there are meetorus</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2007/06/there-are-meters-and-then-there-are-meetorus/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2007/06/there-are-meters-and-then-there-are-meetorus/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2007 19:38:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[East Asian Languages]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Form]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Meaning]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[Someone asked me the other day which was the normal way to talk about meters in Japanese, as in &#8220;the plant is over two meters tall.&#8221; He wondered if it was meetaa or meetoru. I knew I&#8217;d heard (and possibly used) both before, but I wasn&#8217;t sure which was more common, so I guessed meetaa. [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Someone asked me the other day which was the normal way to talk about meters in Japanese, as in &#8220;the plant is over two meters tall.&#8221; He wondered if it was <em>meetaa</em> or <em>meetoru</em>. I knew I&#8217;d heard (and possibly used) both before, but I wasn&#8217;t sure which was more common, so I guessed <em>meetaa</em>. Should have checked the dictionary first.</p>

<p>Consulting with the <em><a href="http://daijirin.dual-d.net/">Daijirin</a></em>, a large American Heritage-style dictionary (as opposed to the <em><a href="http://www.iwanami.co.jp/kojien/">Koujien</a></em>, which is sort of OED-ish), I found an interesting difference between the two. Both <em>meetoru</em> and <em>meetaa</em> have two senses. <em>Meetoru</em>&#8217;s first sense is the unit of measurement, and all related things: <em>meetoru-hoo</em> is the metric system &#8216;meter law/rule&#8217;. <em>Meetaa</em>&#8217;s first sense is &#8220;measurement device,&#8221; as in <em>gasu meetaa</em> &#8216;gas meter&#8217; and <em>paakingu meetaa</em> &#8216;parking meter&#8217;. Did this bring me back to <a href="http://noncompositional.com/2006/07/those-evil-evil-gairaigo/">an earlier post</a>? Yes it did. But this is rather minor, parallel to the pair <em>sutoraiki</em> &#8216;labor strike&#8217; and <em>sutoraiku</em> &#8217;strike (baseball/bowling)&#8217;.</p>

<p>(In fact, the &#8220;strike&#8221; pair is rather interesting because the final vowel is devoiced; if the two words had meanings similar enough that appeared in the same contexts, people might have some serious issues telling them apart.)</p>

<p>But remember that each of these words had two senses? Well, the second senses of each <em>meetaa</em> and <em>meetoru</em> says, basically, &#8220;see [the other word], sense 1.&#8221; Great, I thought. But it&#8217;s actually not that, uh, &#8220;simple,&#8221; because while <em>meetaa</em> indeed has both meanings, <em>meetoru</em> is always the unit of length: there is no <em>gasu meetoru</em>, at least according to one person I spoke with.</p>
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		<title>Get your Austro-Tai out of my Japonic</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2007/05/get-your-austro-tai-out-of-my-japonic/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2007/05/get-your-austro-tai-out-of-my-japonic/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 08 May 2007 02:41:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Books]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[East Asian Languages]]></category>
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		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/2007/05/get-your-austro-tai-out-of-my-japonic/</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[At least, that seems to be the majority reaction to a book by Paul Benedict called Japanese / Austro-Tai, which claims that Japanese is genetically part of the Austro-Tai family. Note that Austro-Tai is a proposed macro-family consisting of Austronesian (Formosan, Malayo-Polynesian), Austroasiatic (Mon-Khmer, among others), and Tai-Kadai (Thai, among others). So the book has [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At least, that seems to be the majority reaction to a book by Paul Benedict called <em>Japanese / Austro-Tai</em>, which claims that Japanese is genetically part of the Austro-Tai family. Note that Austro-Tai is a proposed macro-family consisting of Austronesian (Formosan, Malayo-Polynesian), Austroasiatic (Mon-Khmer, among others), and Tai-Kadai (Thai, among others). So the book has at least as many presuppositions in it as the infamous <em>Japanese and other Altaic Languages</em> by Roy Miller. And it seems to have taken quite a bashing, at least among stauch defenders of an Altaic connection, like Alexander Vovin.</p>

<p>I came across the book as part of a little research project to see what people out there think about the origins of the Japanese people and language. It turns out that the Altaic theory is still pretty strong among linguists and some anthropologists and geneticists, though the possibility of an Austronesian connection is still pretty strong, especially among Eastern scholars. It seems that many of them believe that the origins of the Japanese are best understood as a mixing between northern (Altaic, perhaps) and southern (Austronesian or Austroasiatic, though usually the former) features, at least culturally. Linguistically, the arguments for either a creole or a southern substratum remain, to my eyes, rather unconvincing. Though, I will admit, there are some interesting lexical correspondences between some Ryukyuan, Okinawan, and Kyushuan words for sea navigation, and some proposed Proto-Austronesian words. Okay, there&#8217;s really just one really good one, which was presented not by Benedict but by Osamu Sakiyama in a book with a great title: <em>Prehistoric Mongoloid Dispersals</em>. The word is proto-Austronesian *<em>paRi</em>, which is reflected in various languages with meanings related to south, southern winds, the southern cross, and sting rays (what the southern cross looks like). And, apparently in many of the Japonic languages spoken in southwestern Kyushu and beyond, there are words like <em>pae</em> and <em>pai</em> that mean south/southwestern wind. So, the medial loss of <em>r</em> is supposed to have happened in Japanese (though, I think that is arrived at via comparative Altaic data, so&#8230;yeah); but the vowels, I think, are supposed to have merged in various ways. Clearly some more work has to be done on this one, but it&#8217;s interesting nonetheless.</p>

<p>Anyway, for me the little research project definitely inspired me to become more aware of the (attested) history of Japanese, so it looks like some learning of classical Japanese should be in my future.</p>
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		<title>Now do Tibetan!</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2007/01/now-do-tibetan/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2007/01/now-do-tibetan/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 22 Jan 2007 22:59:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[As seen on TV]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[East Asian Languages]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Use]]></category>

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		<description><![CDATA[Yesterday David Beaver posted about a discussion he&#8217;d had with Elane Chun (of UT Austin) regarding probable causes of the outrage stemming from a well-known talk show host miming Chinese using ching chong and similar forms. I think the conclusions are probably near the mark, adding a slight variation on Answer C: possibly a sometimes-assumed [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yesterday David Beaver <a href="http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/004072.html">posted</a> about a discussion he&#8217;d had with Elane Chun (of UT Austin) regarding probable causes of the outrage stemming from a well-known talk show host miming Chinese using <em>ching chong</em> and similar forms. I think the conclusions are probably near the mark, adding a slight variation on Answer C: possibly a sometimes-assumed compliance among Asian Americans that they will (and perhaps should) be treated as a non-mainstream group, for a variety of reasons (recentness of immigration, recentness of &#8220;on-screen&#8221; activity in the media, being a &#8220;model minority&#8221;, and perhaps others). I, at least, am somewhat pleased when I see an Asian American role in a TV show or movie wherein their Asianness is not made special mention of, or even silently included (for instance, in some aspect of costume or set design). This is not to say that such things should not be included, but simply that the inclusion of an Asian in a production should not necessarily entail a lot of extra cultural baggage.</p>

<p>In some ways, I wonder if there is a very slightly analogous issue with sign languages. After decades of persuading everyone that sign languages are true languages, on a par with spoken languages like Russian and Hindi, now there is the need to take a broader look at the <em>differences</em> between signed and spoken languages. Of course this must now be done with some caution, without disturbing the status built up for sign languages. Yes, each ethnicity and nationality, even after moving to a melting pot like the US, retains some (or much) of its cultural items, but nonetheless is still on a par with every other group in the nation. But you could still give up some of that cultural stuff and still have some sense of identity with your ancestor&#8217;s culture. But, you might not want to. But, &#8230;. and so on, and so on.</p>

<p>[Perhaps you're wondering about the title of this post. Well, I was reminded of an activity that I did in fourth grade, where we students were paired up and then asked to prepare a news broadcast in another language. But most of us were monolingual, and so we were encouraged to mimic the accent and words of our target language. Other members of the class would then have to guess the language. Looking back, this strikes me as a very very strange exercise, and I'm not entirely sure what the goal might have been. But I did learn something significant: to have any effect on the audience, there has to be some common ground. Being the strange sort of lad that I was, I decided to do a Tibetan broadcast. I'll leave it to your imagination what exactly the reaction was. But I have to wonder, what sort of feedback would <em>ching chong</em>s have gotten?]</p>
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