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<channel>
	<title>Noncompositional &#187; Form</title>
	<atom:link href="http://noncompositional.com/category/linguistics/form/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://noncompositional.com</link>
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			<item>
		<title>2010</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2010/01/2010/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2010/01/2010/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 08 Jan 2010 00:01:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Form]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ellipsis]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[minigrammars]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[nomenclature]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[nonhumor]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=411</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Two thousand ten. Why? So that my kids and their friends can make fun of me for using some archaic turn-of-the-century nomenclature while hovercar-ing them to school.

PS, I want someone who is a strong advocate for twenty-X and who is an advocate of syntactic or phonological deletion accounts of right-node raising to say something like [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Two thousand ten. Why? So that my kids and their friends can make fun of me for using some archaic turn-of-the-century nomenclature while hovercar-ing them to school.</p>

<p>PS, I want someone who is a strong advocate for <em>twenty-X</em> and who is an advocate of syntactic or phonological deletion accounts of right-node raising to say something like <em>two thousand five to/through 11</em>.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<item>
		<title>Umbrellas</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2009/10/umbrellas/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2009/10/umbrellas/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:42:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Form]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[agreement]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[error]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[puzzling]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=391</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This past Tuesday it was raining down hard, so most people had their umbrellas out. I witnessed one umbrella that I thought I should mention to some friends. Here&#8217;s how it came out:


  There was this woman who was carrying the smallest umbrella I&#8217;ve ever seen! They were less than the width of her [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This past Tuesday it was raining down hard, so most people had their umbrellas out. I witnessed one umbrella that I thought I should mention to some friends. Here&#8217;s how it came out:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>There was this woman who was carrying the smallest umbrella I&#8217;ve ever seen! They were less than the width of her shoulders!</p>
</blockquote>

<p>No idea why I thought that was allowed.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		</item>
		<item>
		<title>Actions and comments</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2009/08/actions-and-comments/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2009/08/actions-and-comments/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Aug 2009 20:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Form]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Use]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[facebook]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[subjects]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=369</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Facebook statuses take the form of your name (linked to your profile) followed by whatever you type in the box. Many people take advantage of this to make their name the subject of a sentence:


  Russell doesn&#8217;t update his blog much.


But this is by no means universal. Many an update on my home page [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Facebook statuses take the form of your name (linked to your profile) followed by whatever you type in the box. Many people take advantage of this to make their name the subject of a sentence:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>Russell doesn&#8217;t update his blog much.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>But this is by no means universal. Many an update on my home page look like</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>Russell updating your status is boring</p>
</blockquote>

<p>And many other sorts of formats. But what about the comments you can leave in response to others&#8217; status updates? Those too begin with a linked, correctly capitalized name, but I have yet to see (or at least remember) a comment that used that name as the subject of a sentence. They all look like</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>Russell that&#8217;s great, Bill!</p>
</blockquote>

<p>and not</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>Russell thinks that&#8217;s great!</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Russell wonders why.</p>

<p>I thought it might be because the main status field tells you your name will appear in the beginning of your feed, while the comment field doesn&#8217;t. But that&#8217;s not true. It doesn&#8217;t seem like the different prompts (what&#8217;s on your mind? vs write a comment) would necessarily do it. Maybe it&#8217;s about topicality: the status is about the status-holder/typer, but the comment isn&#8217;t necessarily <em>about</em> the commenter.</p>

<p>Or Maybe it&#8217;s more historical? Earlier, all status updates started with &#8220;[name] is&#8221;, but even with the demise of that restriction people still like to exploit the fact that their names appear right before their custom text. I don&#8217;t know when comments started being implemented, but perhaps they came in after any facebook-enforced subjecthood requirements, so the custom never caught on.</p>

<p>Or maybe it&#8217;s something more genre-like: the status is an broadcast announcement, so it makes sense for it to be a sentence about you, while the comment (while also potentially readable by everyone) is more personal and so a more flexible information structure and syntax is needed?</p>
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		<title>Whose side are you on</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2009/02/whose-side-are-you-on/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2009/02/whose-side-are-you-on/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Thu, 26 Feb 2009 05:26:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Form]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[collocation]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[compounding]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[english]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[newspapers]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[syntax]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=333</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[There&#8217;s recently been a string of sexual assaults in the area directly to the south of the UC Berkeley campus, known around town as southside. In the student newspaper, the Daily Californian, an article on the topic began:


  Students and police are intensifying their efforts to curb what officials are calling an unusual string [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There&#8217;s recently been a string of sexual assaults in the area directly to the south of the UC Berkeley campus, known around town as <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Southside,_Berkeley,_California">southside</a>. In the student newspaper, the Daily Californian, an <a href="http://www.dailycal.org/article/104519/police_search_for_sexual_predator">article</a> on the topic began:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>Students and police are intensifying their efforts to curb what officials are calling an unusual string of sexual assaults being reported on the Southside of campus.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>You know what they say about descriptivists (scratch &#8216;em and you find a prescriptivist), and I have to say I do not like <em>the Southside of campus</em>. With <em>Southside</em> as a single (compound) word, complete with compound stress (on the first element), it functions as a proper name, and does not have the complementation pattern that <em>side</em>, the head of the compound, originally had. Maybe reasonable people could disagree with me on this.</p>

<p>At the same time, I noticed that the proper preposition of <em>southside</em> (and <em>northside</em>) is <em>on</em>. One lives and eats on southside, not in or at southside. Why should that be? Other districts of Berkeley properly take an <em>in</em>: Elmwood, Claremont, etc. Well, maybe it&#8217;s the fact that <em>side</em> collocates with <em>on</em>. A little cute, perhaps, but I don&#8217;t really have a better story.</p>

<p>My plan is to present the original sentence to a bunch of undergrads tomorrow to see if they have the same reaction I have. If it ends up interesting, there&#8217;ll be a report of it.</p>
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		<title>Younger than your parents</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2009/02/younger-than-your-parents/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2009/02/younger-than-your-parents/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Feb 2009 07:55:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Form]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Meaning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[comparatives]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ellipsis]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[syntax]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=326</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This week&#8217;s issue of the Journal of Neuroscience contains a really cool article titled &#8220;Transgenerational Rescue of a Genetic Defect in Long-Term Potentiation and Memory Formation by Juvenile Enrichment.&#8221; Clear enough? From the abstract:


  Here, we demonstrate that exposure of 15-d-old mice to 2 weeks of an enriched environment (EE), that includes exposure to [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This week&#8217;s issue of the Journal of Neuroscience contains a really cool article titled &#8220;Transgenerational Rescue of a Genetic Defect in Long-Term Potentiation and Memory Formation by Juvenile Enrichment.&#8221; Clear enough? From the abstract:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>Here, we demonstrate that exposure of 15-d-old mice to 2 weeks of an enriched environment (EE), that includes exposure to novel objects, elevated social interactions and voluntary exercise, enhances long-term potentiation (LTP) not only in these enriched mice but also in their future offspring through early adolescence, even if the offspring never experience EE.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>The effect lasts about three months in the mice exposed to the EE, but wanes much earlier in their offspring (and is not found in the next generation). At one point the authors note that</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>[T]he phenotype ends at an younger age in the offspring of enriched mice than in their parents</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Then comes the fun part. A few sentences later, they say this:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>Defining why the effect ends when the offspring are younger than their parents will require further experimentation</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Totally sweet example of the omission of everything in the comparative clause except for the contrastive bit. Actually, it took me a couple reads to make sure of what they were saying, despite the same information having been just presented.</p>

<p>Processing the sentence was made more difficult (in my case) by the fact that the first time through I read &#8220;younger&#8221; as &#8220;older,&#8221; yielding a truly incomprehensible proposition (which, it should be noted, is still as grammatical as the actual sentence, just with a different meaning).</p>

<p>So&#8230;ever wonder if you&#8217;ve done something when you were younger than your parents? Or older than them?</p>
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		<item>
		<title>I felt pain but not dizzy</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2008/12/i-felt-pain-but-not-dizzy/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2008/12/i-felt-pain-but-not-dizzy/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 31 Dec 2008 20:00:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Form]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Meaning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[ambiguity]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[coordination]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[syntax]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=314</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yesterday I was at a climbing gym working out on a treadmill (climbing isn&#8217;t my thing, generally), and noticed something interesting about the medical warning printed on it. It read (roughly):


  If you feel pain, faint, or dizzy, stop exercising immediately.


Though I&#8217;d read that warning dozens of times on many occasions, this time it [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yesterday I was at a climbing gym working out on a treadmill (climbing isn&#8217;t my thing, generally), and noticed something interesting about the medical warning printed on it. It read (roughly):</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>If you feel pain, faint, or dizzy, stop exercising immediately.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Though I&#8217;d read that warning dozens of times on many occasions, this time it garden-pathed me. The structure is [if you [feel N, A, or A]], which involves coordination of a noun with two adjectives (or their phrasal projections). But thanks to the lexical ambiguity of <em>faint</em>, I parsed it as [if you [feel pain], [faint], or], at which point I was expecting another (finite) verb phrase, but instead got <em>dizzy</em> instead.</p>

<p><span id="more-314"></span>I&#8217;m guessing I parsed <em>faint</em> as a full VP for a few reasons, including possibly a higher frequency of the verb than (this sense of) the adjective, and perhaps more tellingly, the unlikelihood of conjoining a noun and an adjective as a complement of <em>feel</em>. There&#8217;s potentially nothing ungrammatical about it &#8212; and as complements of <em>be</em>, or predicative arguments of verbs like <em>consider</em>, it&#8217;s no problem. But it seems that even for a verb as light as <em>feel</em>, N+A conjunctions seem a little weird.</p>

<p>A look through the <a href="http://www.americancorpus.org/">COCA</a> revealed two potentially real hits for &#8220;feel N and A&#8221;</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>he also is made to feel outlaw and inferior &#8212; instead of ill.</p>
  
  <p>You couldn&#8217;t help but feel empathy and sorry for the mother.</p>
</blockquote>

<p>The first is potentially an adjectival variant of <em>outlaw</em>, but the second is legit &#8212; and boy does it sound strange to me. But, in accordance with the <a href="http://linguistics.berkeley.edu/people/person_detail.php?person=24">Zimmer</a> principle, if you add some words, it improves: <em>You couldn&#8217;t help but feel not just empathy but genuinely sorry for the mother</em>.</p>

<p>I&#8217;m pretty sure the treadmill sentence is syntactically well-formed, or at least I&#8217;d like to say so. But there&#8217;s definitely something fishy going on with the coordination of unlike types, depending on what the governing context is.</p>

<p>[update: almost forgot -- <a href="http://sarahaswell.com/2008/07/30/gym-word-crash/">BROOD</a> has a discussion on this from exactly five months minus one day ago]</p>
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		<item>
		<title>Order strikes again</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2008/12/order-strikes-again/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2008/12/order-strikes-again/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Sun, 14 Dec 2008 22:29:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[As seen on TV]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Form]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Meaning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[commerical]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[english]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[prepositions]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[tv]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=307</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So, you know the old (?) ABC (?) Saturday morning cartoon jingle: &#8220;After these messages, we&#8217;ll be right back.&#8221; Well, back when I was in first grade or whenever it was that I remember them from, I thought, &#8220;Why do they have it in the wrong order?! Shouldn&#8217;t it be &#8216;We&#8217;ll be right back after [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, you know the old (?) ABC (?) Saturday morning cartoon jingle: &#8220;After these messages, we&#8217;ll be right back.&#8221; Well, back when I was in first grade or whenever it was that I remember them from, I thought, &#8220;Why do they have it in the wrong order?! Shouldn&#8217;t it be &#8216;We&#8217;ll be right back after these messages&#8217;?&#8221;</p>

<p>In my more advanced age, I had a rather different reaction to the Target Christmas commercial with a bunch of elementary school students reciting, &#8220;There&#8217;s no place like Target / at Christmas to save.&#8221; Since it&#8217;s in verse, the order isn&#8217;t so exceptional. What&#8217;s interesting is trying to figure out the semantic parse &#8212; and if any of the various parses actually means anything different from any of the others. What&#8217;s clear, I think, is that <em>to save</em> is an infinitival relative modifying <em>place</em>. What&#8217;s up for grabs, I suppose, is whether <em>at Christmas</em> hooks up with <em>save</em> or with <em>be</em>, and if <em>like Target</em> modifies <em>place</em>, <em>place to save</em>, or <em>place to save at Christmas</em>. I think basically all of these mean about or exactly the same thing.</p>

<p><span id="more-307"></span>Also cool: the phrase <em>at Christmas</em>. Generally <em>at</em> prefers point-like times and/or events, or times that are metonymic for events. So <em>at 4 o&#8217;clock</em> and <em>at Burning Man</em> are okay, but <em>at Tuesday</em> is bad. It seems like <em>at [holiday]</em> generally works, but it seems more natural with post-September holidays: Chirstmas, Thanksgiving, Halloween&#8230;uh, and New Year&#8217;s Day (yeah, that&#8217;s post-September). Anyway, the Target commercial also clearly doesn&#8217;t mean &#8220;on Christmas Day&#8221;, since they presumably wish you to save in the weeks leading up as well. Not sure how general this gets (could be for purposes of meter, it&#8217;s &#8220;Christmas&#8221; rather than &#8220;Christmas time/season/etc&#8221;).</p>

<p>Also, I think <em>I hope it doesn&#8217;t rain at my birthday</em> is strange, unless <em>my birthday</em> stands for some event being held for the birthday. On the other hand, <em>it never rains at Christmas/Thanksgiving</em> seems basically normal. And someone could say that even if they never do anything special on those days.</p>
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		<item>
		<title>Needing and getting things out</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2008/09/needing-and-getting-things-out/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2008/09/needing-and-getting-things-out/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 18:23:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Form]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Meaning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[overheard]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[syntax]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[valence]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=288</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[First, yes, I still exist. Moving on&#8230;

I was on an airplane the other day, and as one person was about to stow a bag in the overhead compartment his cotraveler gave him a glance, to which he responded, &#8220;do you need something out of this bag?&#8221;

The sequence &#8220;need+NP+PP&#8221; potentially has two parses. The first is [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, yes, I still exist. Moving on&#8230;</p>

<p>I was on an airplane the other day, and as one person was about to stow a bag in the overhead compartment his cotraveler gave him a glance, to which he responded, &#8220;do you need something out of this bag?&#8221;</p>

<p>The sequence &#8220;need+NP+PP&#8221; potentially has two parses. The first is so-called raising to object: <em>I need you far away from me</em>, <em>I need another flower pot in my garden</em>. In this case what you need is for some state of affairs to hold: &#8220;you are far away from me,&#8221; &#8220;another flower pot is in my garden.&#8221; The other parse involves simply an NP complement, with that NP containing the PP: <em>I need the book on that bookshelf</em>, <em>Do you need the cup in my hand?</em> These are paraphrasable with relative clauses; the book that&#8217;s on the shelf, the cup that&#8217;s in my hand.</p>

<p><span id="more-288"></span>When I first heard <em>do you need something out of this bag</em>, it really sounded like the second parse (and I still think that&#8217;s what it is). It seems like the guy was asking if his friend needed an item that was in that bag, not if she needed it to be the case that some item ended up outside the bag. That is, he <em>could</em> have said, &#8220;Do you need something from this bag?&#8221;</p>

<p>Put another way, I find it unlikely that he was asking, &#8220;Do you need some (particular) thing to be outside the bag?&#8221; especially since what&#8217;s involved is ending up holding or using that item, not just it being outside (to keep it safe from tumbling around in the overhead compartment, e.g. Not to say that he couldn&#8217;t have said what he said and meant the raising-to-object interpretation; I just think he didn&#8217;t.</p>

<p>So the question then becomes: when/why can you use &#8220;out of the bag&#8221; as a nominal modifier like that? If  you say &#8220;something is out of the bag,&#8221; it ain&#8217;t inside it! In general it seems like &#8220;N out of Y&#8221; can mean &#8220;N that is outside of Y, or that could contextually-saliently end up outside of Y.&#8221; (I&#8217;m talking only of physical things: I haven&#8217;t thought about plotlines that look like they&#8217;re right out of Star Trek). So you can say &#8220;something out of this bag must have gotten left behind when we were in security.&#8221;</p>

<p>This generalization will no doubt founder upon the massive amount of data I haven&#8217;t considered. Thankfully, I have a lot of free time to figure this out&#8230;</p>
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		<item>
		<title>New phrase much</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2008/08/new-phrase-much/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2008/08/new-phrase-much/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Wed, 27 Aug 2008 19:08:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[Form]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Meaning]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[genre attraction]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[semantic change]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[weird]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=269</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Perhaps you&#8217;ve noticed a slight dropoff from the normally low-frequency posting here. Well, whatever it is that caused it, it&#8217;s also causing more cars to be on the road every day, and more people to be on various college campuses. In any case, I have a question. It involves things like this:


  For example, [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps you&#8217;ve noticed a slight dropoff from the normally low-frequency posting here. Well, whatever it is that caused it, it&#8217;s also causing more cars to be on the road every day, and more people to be on various college campuses. In any case, I have a question. It involves things like this:</p>

<blockquote>
  <p>For example, in the item description she busts out with the following paragraph: “If you have any questions or comments, feel free to contact me! I do have cats, but I keep them away from the fabrics/craft area.” Uh… non sequitur much? (<a href="http://technabob.com/blog/2008/06/07/show-your-duck-hunt-lightgun-cuff/">link</a>)</p>
  
  <p>Your writer’s true colors are revealed when they refer to a Big Mac as &#8220;charred flesh&#8221;. Ummm, vegan much? Thank you, and have a nice day. (<a href="http://www.kansan.com/stories/2007/sep/06/editorial/">link</a>)</p>
  
  <p>Uh, okay. Prejudiced much? (<a href="http://forums.quizilla.com/showthread.php?t=59819&amp;page=2">link</a>)</p>
  
  <p>Beetle: uh, hmmm&#8230;literate much? (<a href="http://www.usmagazine.com/morning_rush_donald_sends_barbara">link</a>)</p>
</blockquote>

<p>Not part of my idiolect much? I have to admit that this is not really part of my speech, and I don&#8217;t have a good grasp on how to use it and what phrases can the much-ified (thus leaning on the crutch of there sometimes being as uh/um before the item in question). And it sure seems like there must have been some popular or cult individual who popularized this sort of thing &#8211; any ideas?</p>

<p>And it could be that I&#8217;m not really all that sure what these things <em>mean</em>, at least in the semantic details. That is to day, in something like <em>busy much?</em> or <em>come here much?</em>, you&#8217;re asking about frequency. In <em>enjoy movies much?</em> you&#8217;re asking about degree/extent (or possibly frequency&#8230;I suppose). In something like <em>non sequitur much?</em> is the person (sarcastically) asking about the frequency of non sequiturs (by some individual), or is that not really what&#8217;s going on?</p>
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		<title>Zhuzhing up Beijing</title>
		<link>http://noncompositional.com/2008/08/zhuzhing-up-beijing/</link>
		<comments>http://noncompositional.com/2008/08/zhuzhing-up-beijing/#comments</comments>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Aug 2008 00:12:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<dc:creator>Russell</dc:creator>
				<category><![CDATA[East Asian Languages]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Form]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[Linguistics]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[annoyances]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[beijing]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[mandarin]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[overheard]]></category>
		<category><![CDATA[pronunciation]]></category>

		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://noncompositional.com/?p=278</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[About a month ago I wrote about what seems to be the more prevalent pronunciation of Beijing, namely that involving the postalveolar voiced fricative [ʒ]. Recently an AP article was written that aims to clear everything up and explain that, in fact the &#8220;hard j&#8221; sound in English is a closer approximation to the Mandarin [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>About a month ago I <a href="http://noncompositional.com/2008/07/living-with-a-soft-j/">wrote</a> about what seems to be the more prevalent pronunciation of Beijing, namely that involving the postalveolar voiced fricative [ʒ]. Recently <a href="http://sports.yahoo.com/olympics/news?slug=ap-tv-whatcity&amp;prov=ap&amp;type=lgns">an AP article</a> was written that aims to clear everything up and explain that, in fact the &#8220;hard j&#8221; sound in English is a closer approximation to the Mandarin pronunciation than the &#8220;soft j&#8221; sound that I (<a href="http://www.languagehat.com/archives/002167.php">and</a> <a href="http://158.130.17.5/~myl/languagelog/archives/000570.html">others</a>) find so frustrating. The main source of the article is not native Mandarin speakers, but S. Robert Ramsey (whose book on Chinese I <a href="http://noncompositional.com/2005/07/unity-and-diversity-in-china/">mentioned</a> about three years ago). Bill Poser <a href="http://languagelog.ldc.upenn.edu/nll/?p=493">discusses</a> the article on LL.</p>

<p>So, this is all to the good, no? I suppose&#8230;but then again, I find I usually pronounce the name of the city Shanghai so that the first vowel is that of <em>hang</em> or <em>fang</em>, not that of <em>father</em>. This despite knowing full well the Mandarin pronunciation (which, as the official language, I would take to be the expected way for a foreigner to say the word, rather than in Shanghainese). In this case, the low mid-vowel is both the more proper and more foreign sounding option, and yet I do not frequently use it (at least, I don&#8217;t think I do, unless speaking with, say, a Chinese-speaker). Is Shanghai really that different from Beijing? And this is to say nothing of Seoul (which I render with a single syllable). Maybe I&#8217;m just a super-Anglicizer, and in the case of Beijing it happens to work out.</p>

<p>And for some sane arguments in favor of Beizhing, I recommend <a href="http://www.bjshengr.com/bjs/2008/03/beizhing-pekin-whatever/">this entry</a> in Beijing Sounds.</p>
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